Today in Wine Before Breakfast (the Wycliffe College Anglican service ran by Brian Walsh) the sermon talked about the Magi that came to visit Jesus. Like so often happens when Christians talk about the Magi, we were warned away from astrology and magic. But why?
This is something that has confused me since early childhood: Why do we discount the religion of the first people who came to see Jesus without being told to. Mary had to be visited by an angel, as did Joseph. The shepherds had a whole chorus, and Simeon had been told by the Holy Spirit (and Jesus was brought to him, he did not go to Jesus). Later in Jesus' life it's Jesus that generally takes the initiative in calling out people to follow him and be his disciples. But not so for the Magi.
These Persian Zoroastrian Astrologer Pagans (or something like that) came to Jesus. They followed a star. They didn't need to be told by an angel. They didn't need the Holy Spirit to guide them. Instead, they came hundreds of miles to visit Jesus because of a star. Because of astrology. Because of evil pagan magical practice that we (as Christians) must be warned away from.
So why?
Why are we so afraid of astrology? Isn't this the ultimate hypocrisy: to wall off our saviour from those who first recognised him! Surely if astrology can find the messiah (the heavens declare the glory of God) then we should be involved in astrology? If the divine can be found through magic, then practice magic!
Or at least stop excluding those who practice magic, maybe opening up an area for Christian magic?
Hey Stu. Following a tom-tipoff I found your blog. Why was it hidden? anyway, I am here now like it or not.
ReplyDeleteThis is the first entry I have read, but it is interesting, so I am going to dive right in without reading the rest of the blog.
My main question is: Where does the antipithy towards astrology and magic come from? Is it from the Bible? If so, who warns us against it? Or is it something that the Church has decided. If so, how far back does it date, and why?
If it is just an extension of the first two commandments, then that is perhaps an understanable conclusion, but Astrology itself and Astronomy certainly don't seem to be a religion or an idol. Or are they?
Is this the source of the fear?
-Iain
still trying to work out this account thing. will this get shown? if so, ignore it. doh!
ReplyDeleteMy blog wasn't meant to be hidden, I'd sent it to you at the bottom of emails. :)
ReplyDeleteThere's a number of things in the Bible about magic and occultism, both positive (or common use) and negative. ReligiousTolerance.Org (one of the best websites for anything to do with religion).
As I was brought up, astronomy was fine (it was just considered scientific observation) - it was astrology that was the problem. I think this was because it was seen as an alternative place to put faith/trust (trying to know the future) rather than just trusting God.
It also seems to me that Jesus subverted both racial and religious intolerance, and so acceptance of other religions (and even melding them into your own) could well be considered Christ-like.
who says the Holy Spirit didn't guide the Magi?
ReplyDeleteand
The Holy Spirit may have guided the Magi, but we would be guessing that. The Magi are only mentioned in Matthew and it is clear that they are following a star. They see the star, for some reason know that star represents Jesus' birth, and follow that star to arrive in Bethlehem at the exact "house" (presumably stables) where Mary is.
ReplyDeleteThe point is that the Magi believed in wisdom from the stars, ie, Astrology, and it was correct.
--
I'm liking this derailing about generalising this question so I'm going to take it further. Isn't there a massive paradox between the fundamental Christian themes of tolerance and understanding and the commandments about "do not worship any other God" and "do not worship idols"? How can the both understanding and tolerance sit side-by-side with condemnation of other faith / belief systems?
This seems to be a pretty fundamental conflict between "left" Christians and "right" Christians.
-Iain
You could say that the Holy Spirit was guiding the Magi, but the Bible says it was the star. If you want to say that the Holy Spirit put the star there, then you're effectively validating astrology as Christian. You're also imposing your belief system (Holy Spirit) onto another belief system (Astrology), which if you do you have to be willing to allow them to do to you, i.e. saying that it's really the stars and planets that determined Jesus would die on the cross etc. Or something like that. I've not studied inter-religious dialog as such, but I recognise the internal conflict I'm having and don't want to dominate or offend another set of beliefs by imposing my own (see my post about Ev(il?)angelism).
ReplyDeleteYour second question Iain is a huge question. Some would say that the 10 commandments are cultural (like not touching women during their period), and that Jesus was the one who opened up the religion to be accepting and tolerant (welcoming?) of other religions. This is what immediately comes to mind, but I'm sure there are plenty of other reasons. And even left-Christians aren't always that accepting (the guy who preached about not doing astrology is one of the most politically activist/left people I know).
Btw, who's the picture of Iain (with the multiple keyboards)?
(goddam, i hate this login system. it just deleted my post and keeps making me type my password like 6 times... retyping, but its never as good the 2nd time around).
ReplyDeleteSo the 10 commandmants, old testament and all that, are they at all relevant to the Gospel? Does jesus (implicitly) make them all obsolete the same way he (implicitly) washes away most of the old testament blood and thunder? And if they are still relevant, why doesn't he mention them?
The dude with the keyboards isVangelis, a prog rock musician and keyboard virtuoso. He makes it his mission to play as many keyboards as possible, all simultaneously. He wrote Chariots of Fire, Blade Runner and other stuff. I think Righteous would have been a fan, for a number of reasons.
-Iain
(I always Copy my writing before publishing).
ReplyDeleteNearly every Christian will rush to say that Jesus didn't come to abolish the law but to fulfill it (Matthew 5:17). But in nearly every case where I've heard someone invoke this verse, it's been empty - just using a quotation from Jesus that has no bearing on the practice that they hold to. It seems that Jesus replaces the 10 with the 2 (love God, love neighbour) and that these are barely laws at all, more guidelines. So no, I don't think the 10 have much bearing on the gospel, or too much use for the world today. Maybe some, but not much.
Pan's Labyrinth is a great film (very dark) that has a good theme of blind obedience being a sin and rightly motivated disobedience a virtue (see Del Toro's 7th paragraph in the interview).
What's with the "would have liked Vangelis"? Righteous is still alive! ;)
It's funny you should mention the Magi, because that always baffled me too. My dad would frequently mention growing up that the Magi were astrologers, and yet they were the "good guys." How does that work?? Honest answer: I have no idea.
ReplyDeleteStu,
ReplyDeleteDoes articulating something out of one's belief system necessarily mean that they are imposing their belief system on another?
For example, if I say that the Holy Spirit or God or whoever put the star there to guide the Magi, does that mean that I am invalidating their belief system of astrology? Or am I just articulating it out of the belief system that I find myself in?
I never said anything about invalidating a belief system. I believe you're free to articulate your belief system/mythology to describe things. However, I think there would be a problem if you didn't allow others the same courtesy (I know you're not denying that).
ReplyDeleteI guess describing something using your own mythology is what you have to do. So I guess that it's either not imposing, or that this form of imposition is OK. On the other hand, you have to allow others to describe things 'in your religion' (as if an event belongs to a particular religion) using the language they want, even if it's a precious event/artefact that you are normally very careful with language when describing.
Maybe I'm assuming people will have good motives towards each other concerning religion, and I'm being unrealistic. But I am generally around people who want to be respectful of other religions, so I guess I'm talking primarily to them (and not to those who wish to impose their own religion or exclude others from 'salvation' based upon religion).
An anonymous friend said (on email, paraphrased):
ReplyDeleteThe (holy) spirit!? What the hell!!! Think about the same thing happening in different circumstances:
a) someone fell down in a charismatic church service.
b) someone fell down in the subway/streetcar.
Almost every charismatic christian will explain a) as "struck by the holy spirit", but nobody would tend to explain b) as the work of the "holy spirit". See? Why not? It's just because we choose to describe and understand some circumstances within particular language/concept settings. But the fact is, we don't fucking know what's truly going on.
Supernatural things happen, everywhere. To be (Holy spirit = )Spiritual or (astrology = )superstitious? Who cares? They are just 2 sides of the same coin (provided that is how limited and ignorant we are in terms of understanding human mind/power).
The only thing I'm quite certain is, if you choose to believe in supernaturality (the impossible becoming possible), this broken world will looks a bit more bearable and hopeful.
I find that a rather bleak view, but yes, it is all about how we choose to describe the events. And how we let others.
ReplyDeleteI still see no reason as to why most Christians condemn anything called 'magic', given their own Scriptures and traditions. I think it's incoherent and should be addressed by more than just me. :)
There is always the unencompassable that exceeds our knowledge, that exceeds our artifactual environment. This is the mysterious, which we can never fully comprehend. And this is where belief arises. We articulate the mysterious out of our belief systems. The problem arises when we try to go beyond articulating it and attempt to rationally explain away the mysterious with our beliefs. To say that the star was put their by the Holy Spirit is only one way of articulating this mysterious event, but when this is used to take the mystery out of the mysterious appearance of the star it becomes violent. We feel that we have domesticated the mysterious, explained the true reason behind the appearance of the star, and then impose this onto other belief systems.
ReplyDeleteSo what I am saying is find comfort in the mysterious, find comfort in human limitations, find comfort in incomprehension, find comfort in irreducible ignorance, and by all means articulate the mysterious from out of the belief system that you find yourself in, but don't think that this encompasses the unencompassable.
Click here for comments about the Magi made by Leonardo Boff, the Catholic Latin American Liberation Theologian.
ReplyDelete